Curse

Daesu · Nov 23, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingHotImolation

Wat? a 100 dmg and interrupt area range spell is always worth it - even in areas without casters. It took a big hit, but i still think its worth it for the interrupt as long as there are casters.
Yes - things are not as nicely balled as in cryway teams, but area range is big enough for it to be useful for regular pve.

Most people dont bring CoP for the interrupt, only for the AoE damage.

Sure 100 damage on a 12s recharge and you also need to bring another mesmer hex to enable it. This means you need to waste more time and energy everytime you want to cast it on a new target. It is not that it is a bad spell, it is just not that awesome compared to some other PvE skills and I hate the tank and spank nature of it.

If it is that awesome compared to the other PvE skills, other professions would all be going X/Me to bring CoP because it is not linked to the mesmer's primary attribute, fast casting.

Tenebrae · Nov 24, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Most people dont bring CoP for the interrupt, only for the AoE damage.

Sure 100 damage on a 12s recharge and you also need to bring another mesmer hex to enable it. This means you need to waste more time and energy everytime you want to cast it on a new target. It is not that it is a bad spell, it is just not that awesome compared to some other PvE skills and I hate the tank and spank nature of it.
.

Well , in a context where this mesmer is always having 2+ mesmer hexes on its bar anyway is not a "waste of time and energy" since its going to use them whether having CoP or not. Ofc YMLAD is a "sure" bet that dont depend on nothing ( except foes being KD'able ) to do its full effect but you dont really need a tank and spank , it has an area of effect "in the area" . Just a little good positioning and youll hit 2+ targets with every CoP.

PS: I guess you count degen as damage , last time i checked it did 50 dmg not 100.

maxxfury · Nov 24, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

PS: I guess you count degen as damage , last time i checked it did 50 dmg not 100.

50 direct damage + 10 seconds of 5 degen = 150 total.

Atrenim · Nov 24, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Fast Casting 12 +1 +1
Inspiration Magic 12

I think I'll use this one. Mantra of Recovery is much Harder to remove and allows me to spam the spells more often, including Drain Delusions which will mange my energy. I'll also stick with Tryptophan Signet to stop melee opponents as well as any type of martial attacks. Any more comments? Maybe I missed something?

Daesu · Nov 24, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Well , in a context where this mesmer is always having 2+ mesmer hexes on its bar anyway is not a "waste of time and energy" since its going to use them whether having CoP or not. Ofc YMLAD is a "sure" bet that dont depend on nothing ( except foes being KD'able ) to do its full effect but you dont really need a tank and spank , it has an area of effect "in the area" . Just a little good positioning and youll hit 2+ targets with every CoP.

PS: I guess you count degen as damage , last time i checked it did 50 dmg not 100.

You are right, 100 damage was before the nerf, so it is crappier now.

Even if you dont mind bringing a mesmer hex on your bar, you still need to make sure that you cast it before using CoP on a new target. Unfortunately many CoP bars bring the hex just for the sake of supporting CoP (e.g. Mindwrack or Fragility), rather than incorporating synergy. These bars would effectively sacrifice 2 skill slots, and extra casting time+energy when using CoP on a new target.

Atrenim · Nov 24, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You are right, 100 damage was before the nerf, so it is crappier now.

Even if you dont mind bringing a mesmer hex on your bar, you still need to make sure that you cast it before using CoP on a new target. Unfortunately many CoP bars bring the hex just for the sake of supporting CoP (e.g. Mindwrack or Fragility), rather than incorporating synergy. These bars would effectively sacrifice 2 skill slots, and extra casting time+energy when using CoP on a new target.

Being the person who asked for help, I will not be too critical on your failure to notice that the build I am proposing makes use of your so called "useless hex" by combining it with not only Cry of Pain but also Necrosis and Drain Delusions,. Next time you so viciously attack a skill, please make sure to examine the context within it is being used.

Thank you,

Atrenim

Tenebrae · Nov 24, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

50 direct damage + 10 seconds of 5 degen = 150 total.

Well yes i know but that depends on 2 things :
- Max or almost max sunspear rank ( yes , not the entire GW population has it )
- Leaving the foe 10 secs more alive for degen to "do" its damage.
First point yeah , why not .... but second ? dont think that foe will last more than 5 secs alive (+ those secs before you used CoP on him ) , thats why i said ~100 damage.

Daesu · Nov 24, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atrenim

Being the person who asked for help, I will not be too critical on your failure to notice that the build I am proposing makes use of your so called "useless hex" by combining it with not only Cry of Pain but also Necrosis and Drain Delusions,. Next time you so viciously attack a skill, please make sure to examine the context within it is being used.

You asked for help and we gave you our honest opinions. In the end, it is still your call if you want to take our advice or not, which you dont seem to want to. If you dont intend to listen to our opinions then you shouldnt have asked for help in the first place.

Bringing the hex just for CoP, then drain it doesn't make your build any better.

Quote:

First point yeah , why not .... but second ? dont think that foe will last more than 5 secs alive (+ those secs before you used CoP on him ) , thats why i said ~100 damage.

Right. If you usually take more than 10s to kill each normal foe in HM, then something is wrong with your team build.

Atrenim · Nov 24, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You asked for help and we gave you our honest opinions. In the end, it is still your call if you want to take our advice or not, which you dont seem to want to. If you dont intend to listen to our opinions then you shouldnt have asked for help in the first place.

Bringing the hex just for CoP, then drain it doesn't make your build any better.

Daesu, I asked for help, and have been receiving it, except that you have moved the discussion from the builds I presented to a rant about the uselessness of Cry of Pain. Furthermore, I have not denied your help and have only pointed out that you have diverged from the topic of interest. If you do not feel the need to give your "honest opinion" about the build then please do not feel the need to post your "honest opinion" about Cry of Pain.

Once again, thank you,

Atrenim

Daesu · Nov 24, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atrenim

Daesu, I asked for help, and have been receiving it, except that you have moved the discussion from the builds I presented to a rant about the uselessness of Cry of Pain. Furthermore, I have not denied your help and have only pointed out that you have diverged from the topic of interest. If you do not feel the need to give your "honest opinion" about the build then please do not feel the need to post your "honest opinion" about Cry of Pain.

It sounds like you have already decided on using CoP no matter what, and all you wanted was for people here to confirm that it is a good choice. That is NOT asking for help, that would be asking for approval. Note the difference.

If you feel the need to defend CoP to the bitter end, then there is no point for us to post why it may not be the best choice. I have already said, that there are better PvE skills alternatives several posts back and explained why.

maxxfury · Nov 25, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

First point yeah , why not .... but second ? dont think that foe will last more than 5 secs alive (+ those secs before you used CoP on him ) , thats why i said ~100 damage.

1: if you dont get 8/9 in a play thru without grind then some thing is wrong or you got rushed :P

2: Truth! if it last that long your doin it wrong

3: i was happily pointing out for the people who may have thought that when you said 50 damage, that was all it gave you

Some people dont read skill descriptions post updates

and/or dont understand degen is counted in the total damage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

If you feel the need to defend CoP to the bitter end, then there is no point for us to post why it may not be the best choice. I have already said, that there are better PvE skills alternatives several posts back and explained why.

Pre nerf Cop was an animal

Post nerf Cop is a slightly untrained house cat :P

The Drunkard · Nov 26, 2009, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atrenim

Fast Casting 12 +1 +1
Inspiration Magic 12

I think I'll use this one. Mantra of Recovery is much Harder to remove and allows me to spam the spells more often, including Drain Delusions which will mange my energy. I'll also stick with Tryptophan Signet to stop melee opponents as well as any type of martial attacks. Any more comments? Maybe I missed something?

If you have good healers you could swap out efest for another skill. Otherwise it looks good to me.

Cuilan · Nov 27, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

CoP is meh, outside of a cryway team, even before the nerf. I dont use it now after the nerf. Nowadays, I just use an AP+PvE skills build loaded with inspiration spells for energy management and utility.

[build prof=Me/A fas=3 ins=12 dead=12][Assassin's Promise]["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support]["Finish Him!"][Enduring Toxin][Inspired Hex][Drain Enchantment][Ether Signet][/build]

Pre-nerf 100 armor ignoring AoE (that affects a whole "area") plus a possible interrupt is meh? You use Enduring Toxin while Cry of Pain has damage on top of higher longer degen. With Enduring Toxin's possible renewal, it's weird that you'd say enemies shouldn't live past 10 seconds while fighting each in HM. I don't see how you can kill much with this build unless you're letting the other players, heroes, and henchman do all the work. Don't complain about a profession if you can't even play a build well with it. You also lack fast casting for getting in your skills faster and for a better chance of applying AP before death. The PvX build (Me/A Assassin's Promise Spiker) has only one other energy skill (Auspicious Incantation which works amazingly well with AP) other than AP itself and I've found little if any energy problems with it. Ether Signet...are you using a low energy weapon set? By the way, Cry of Pain also weakens other enemies that you'll be casting on after your first foe dies.

Fragility has synergy with most groups out there. I mean...really. You Move Like a Dwarf doesn't have synergy with the above build. The build as a whole doesn't have that at all.

You QQ about lack of energy while other players work around it without filling half the bar with energy management.

Daesu · Nov 27, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Pre-nerf 100 armor ignoring AoE (that affects a whole "area") plus a possible interrupt is meh? You use Enduring Toxin while Cry of Pain has damage on top of higher longer degen. With Enduring Toxin's possible renewal, it's weird that you'd say enemies shouldn't live past 10 seconds while fighting each in HM. I don't see how you can kill much with this build unless you're letting the other players, heroes, and henchman do all the work. Don't complain about a profession if you can't even play a build well with it. You also lack fast casting for getting in your skills faster and for a better chance of applying AP before death. The PvX build (Me/A Assassin's Promise Spiker) has only one other energy skill (Auspicious Incantation which works amazingly well with AP) other than AP itself and I've found little if any energy problems with it. Ether Signet...are you using a low energy weapon set? By the way, Cry of Pain also weakens other enemies that you'll be casting on after your first foe dies.

Enduring Toxin degen only needs to make sure that the target gets < 50% hp for FH. And even if the target is barely alive after a FH spike, the degen would finish it off within a second. I dont miss Fast Casting at all since the shouts cast instantly, cannot be interrupted, cannot be backfired/migrained, and can be activated while casting other spells. They also go right through spell breakers and similar enchantments which would stop most mesmers who rely on spells alone. I dont need AI because most of my spells have low energy req. What is the use of high level Fast Casting if you have to cast AI before casting your spells anyway?

Weakening enemies through CoP require the enemies to be grouped together. It is also not useful when your mesmer is being targeted by melee since it needs a tank and spank approach to PvE so there is a greater reliance on your team to tank for you using minions, spirits, or otherwise.

Quote:

Fragility has synergy with most groups out there. I mean...really. You Move Like a Dwarf doesn't have synergy with the above build. The build as a whole doesn't have that at all.

You are wrong. YMLAD has nice synergy with EVAS for a second KD and EVAS damage combined with ET would easily bring the target's hp to < 50% for FH. ET also serves as a cover hex for AP. Fragility can be removed and its damage has to depend on conditions which can only be supplied through other skills or your team mates. I prefer the direct damage and effect through shouts.

Quote:

You QQ about lack of energy while other players work around it without filling half the bar with energy management.

That is because I dont need to bring so many spells which would all be useless against a target with a simple spell breaker or vow of silence while I can still deal damage, inflict conditions, snare, and KD. Except for Ether Signet, I fill the rest of my bar with utility skills that also happen to return energy, fulfilling more than one role per skill slot. Ether Signet is not crucial for the build, which can be replaced by another skill if preferred.

Cuilan · Nov 28, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Enduring Toxin is so awful.

Not cast slow or pre-cast... Again, fast casting helps AP.

Cry of Pain doesn't require groups to be together and there isn't anything tank and spank about it.

Interesting how nearly all foes that use Vow of Silence and Spellbreaker are painfully easy to kill. They're also less common than enchant strippers.

Two plain attack skills is not synergy. They're just two attack skills.

Daesu · Nov 28, 2009, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Enduring Toxin is so awful.

Not cast slow or pre-cast... Again, fast casting helps AP.

What are you talking about? ET has a 1/4 second cast time. AP has a 3/4 second cast time. I am sure my caster has no problems with their casting time even without fast casting.

Quote:

Cry of Pain doesn't require groups to be together and there isn't anything tank and spank about it.

CoP is an AoE spell so it has a range that is smaller than earshot. At least, my mesmers can easily handle herself when targeted by melee without the help of a minion/spirit/tank.

Quote:

Interesting how nearly all foes that use Vow of Silence and Spellbreaker are painfully easy to kill. They're also less common than enchant strippers.

Similar anti spell enchantments are common enough. So much for relying on your team while you wand.

Feel free to use CoP all you want if it suits your personal playing style, but there are stronger builds than that right now.

Tenebrae · Nov 28, 2009, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

CoP is an AoE spell so it has a range that is smaller than earshot.

Slightly smaller , has AREA range . If you are not able to hit 2+ foes when you use it you must be looking TV instead of your monitor pal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Similar anti spell enchantments are common enough. So much for relying on your wand attacks.

No they are not , they are like .... less than 5% ? not a valid argument soz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Feel free to use CoP all you want if it suits your personal playing style, but there are stronger builds than that right now.

Yeah there would be but you cant say that when you have enduring toxin on your build. Seriously , no matter how you look at it , that skill is awfull . Complaining about Fragility and defend Enduring Toxin on an AP caller bar has no sense to me but yeah "Feel free to use <enduring toxin> all you want if it suits your personal playing style, but there are <better skills> than that right now."

Daesu · Nov 28, 2009, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Yes, yes, whatever since you absolutely insist, it must be right. Otherwise I would be drawn into a lengthy flame war.